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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Unlike the US, many jurisdictions around the world do not allow their citizens to carry loaded firearms for self defense in the streets, many view knives as a contentious issue as a potentially lethal weapon in terms of proportional means of defense relative to the type of attack, some will barely allow Kubotans and tactical pens to keep two legged trouble at bay, and some at least allow pepper spray. In countries such as the UK and Spain, forget the very concept of self defense, because all of the above are prohibited. No "stand your ground" there, more like "run away fast, if you can". Great.

Kubotans and tactical pens seem to make sense when it comes to relatively non-lethal E.D.C defense tools, as the attacker may suffer some rather nasty bruises and possibly worse if hit in the face, but will most likely live to see another day. This is crucial because of a tendency of judges here in Europe to be lenient with the perpetrators, while legally hammering the innocent victim who decided to make a proactive response to the attacker with a suitable defense tool. There is plenty of case law where the victim ended up in jail, whereas the perpetrator(s) left court to freedom. Thankfully, Samuel Colt and legislators thought differently on your side of the pond. "Make my day" has well founded origins.

I've been looking at tactical pens as an interesting option, as it does not draw any particular attention (it's just a ballpoint pen with a pointed metal tube, right?), and that it is fully legal to carry here in Switzerland - as opposed to kubutans, for some twisted legal logic I fail to understand. I find so-called "knuckle dusters" quite interesting too, but these are totally banned in most of Europe. This is strange, considering that a fully legal pointed tactical pen has the potential of inflicting some really serious injury to an assailant from someone with the right skills in the heat of the moment.

If you're now thinking "why does he need a self defense tool in the land of chocolate & watches"...well, fully open borders to the EU have also attracted criminal folks out for easy money in a wealthy country, and an influx of "culturally interesting" (I'm being very polite here) new folks from Arabia and Africa seeking asylum in Switzerland, a trend encouraged by the do-gooder leftist parties, have not done much good in terms of felt safety in city streets. Quite sad really, because it really was very safe here until about 15-20 years ago.

So, what is your opinion on a defense tool with which you can both write and strike?
 

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Here in the UK I think the Police would recognise that you were carrying a tactical pen, as opposed to an ordinary pen and possibly try and charge you for carrying and offensive weapon. If a pen is the route you want to go down then simply carry a full metal body normal pen, like those nice stainless "Parker" pens you see.
I carry two Leatherman tools with me, knife and saw blades removed to make them legal - if it came to it I would extend the locking Philips screwdriver and have one in each hand as non-lethal (screwdrivers are only 30mm long) but very debilitating punching weapons. In the UK screwdrivers are not classed as offensive weapons.
You should check exactly the legal situation in Switzerland.
 

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Mojave Mo
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I can barely wrap my head around what you guys are saying here. But to answer your question ‘Yes’—if a tactical pen is all you’ve got, then make it work. I was born in the ‘64 in the US and grew up on a dairy farm. It was just like you see in the movies. Shotgun behind the door, deer rifle in the truck, six shooter on the hip with a fixed blade knife on the other hip and a folder in the pocket. All tools, plain and simple. Knowing what I know now and If I had to live in one of your countries I would carry an ebony cane with a heavy handle. If it was raining a lot I’d have a weighted umbrella with me. When it comes to self defense it is best to keep the violence out of reach if possible. Using a tactical pen or a stripped Leatherman means you’d better be ready and raging mad to keep hammering away while blood is drenching your hand and making things hard to hold onto. I’ve spent almost 30 years working for Uncle Sam and needed to carry a pistol for the majority of that time. The difficulty with self defense is the reality that it isn’t like scaring a mean dog away. You need to be ready to tear flesh and break bones to potentially save your own life or that of a loved one.
 

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Where you a policeman?
Oh no... Mo ain't no cop. Ask him his real name... "I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude!"


:ROFLMAO:

Jokes apart... I have seen people who worked for a govt. And he talks just like them. Sez a lot without actually giving away anything.

And I would maybe take a steel rod. maybe like 25-30cm
You mean an expanding baton? Saved my life once. Extremely effective.
Hand Gesture Finger Nail Tints and shades

Hand Gesture Thumb Finger Elbow
 

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I've been practicing... on and off... some kind of martial art since before I was ten. And in my opinion, if you are not trained in even basic hand to hand, carrying a tactical pen won't help you in any way.

Knuckle dusters are for amateurs who don't know they'll break their own fingers when they use those. 🤣

Stun guns are also over-hyped garbage. Taser.... will work on one guy, not on two. And if you are confronted by the mythical Arab refugee mob... well they never mug you alone. Arabs are a mob people.

Best self defense tool? Knife, of course. But are you prepared to draw blood??? Are you prepared to deal with the "good guys"... the legal system... later? I sure am not.

So there is only ONE weapon that actually works and can stop more than one attacker in their tracks INSTANTLY (I have seen it used).

Pepper spray. Get a dispenser that fits on a key chain. Nobody can even see you are armed. Look for a brand called "Sabre Red".
Rectangle Font Slope Parallel Number

And get basic training, THEN you can dream of tactical pens or expanding batons.

Jason Bourne, we are not. 🤣
 

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Kubotan is quite effective, but only in the hands of a trained person. Without training and proper striking technique it is almost useless. It's movie heroes who kill enemies with a pencil, but in real life there are few supermen. :)
For the average person, a punch-dagger is more suitable, because it is an extension of the fist, but these knives are probably also banned in Europe.
I think that for a person with no training, the best option for a non-lethal weapon is a quality gas canister.
 

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Thanks for summarizing what I wrote, mate. Much appreciated. :LOL:

Here be the three tactical pens I carry. One is a mechanical pencil. The other is a heavy stainless steel pen with a tungsten carbide attack head.. "glass breaker" (will also go through a skull). And the last one (top one) is the most dangerous... I made that myself.
Writing implement Office supplies Medical equipment Writing instrument accessory Pen

Window Finger Thumb Pink Nail

When I am really serious, I can always carry my gun (apart from a knife). Tactical pens are just a back up.

If you depend on these for your primary defense... and you have no concept of hand to hand fighting... you deserve getting nailed. Seriously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Some interesting viewpoints.

Essentially, the best self defense is avoiding trouble in the first place, and so-called "situational awareness" is paramount here. Most of us do not keep up with combat sport techniques to be in a top notch preparation condition for an unexpected attack, and we simply are not collectively conditioned to aggressive behavior - quite on the contrary. Moreover, the right to self defense related criminal law in most countries is such that any reaction deemed excessive in court can take the victim straight to jail.

Indeed, the right to self defense is limited to actions that are proportional to the type of attack. If guns and knives are no option as is the case in most Western and Asian countries, all that is left is pepper spray and a Kubotan or tactical pen-type self defense tool, and in many cases, not even that.

The old adage from a gentleman named Oliver Goldsmith comes to mind: "He who fights and runs away may live to fight another day. But he who is battle slain can never rise to fight again". From this perspective, it makes sense that most people out there, being untrained in hand-to-hand combat in a generally peaceful society, will benefit from something like pepper spray or a tactical pen to gain valuable time for an escape to safety. This is what really counts, not to mention the truly thin line between effective non-lethal self defense and the law.

This is also why US gun laws allowing citizens to be armed with lethal force make absolute sense in my opinion. Bad guys will think twice before trying their evil plans. This gives the weaker members in society a chance.

Sean, I do not think that anyone "deserves to be nailed" (!!!) if they are innocent victims going about their daily lives, and are not fully trained and experienced in martial arts: that is the case of the clear majority in society.
 

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the right to self defense related criminal law in most countries is such that any reaction deemed excessive in court can take the victim straight to jail.
In case of a gun:

1. Intruder gets one shot to the chest while on your property AND you used a weapon licensed in your name AND IF the intruder is also armed.... You are good. No judge can send you to jail.

2. You shot the guy in the back. Oops. Not so good.... self defense becomes debatable. You might win if the bad guy had a gun on him.

3. You shot him twice. Self-defense in doubt. You are in big trouble.

4. You shot him with an unlicensed weapon. Your life is over.

being untrained in hand-to-hand combat in a generally peaceful society, will benefit from something like pepper spray or a tactical pen to gain valuable time for an escape to safety
Untrained person will benefit from pepper spray. Not so much from a tactical pen.

Before pepper spray, women used to carry red chili powder mixed with black pepper in their purses. Also works.

One more weapon I failed to mention is a walking stick. I sometimes like carrying a walking stick. Just because I like the style. And I can tell you... when people look at me and I look back, they turn their eyes away. Eye contact broken. Otherwise, people have "lazy eyes"... they stare at you just because they can. That ends. And that also ends the start of any potential trouble. Wearing dark shades also has similar effect... see my pic. :ROFLMAO:

Seems to be human instinct of some sort to be afraid of a walking stick.



Sean, I do not think that anyone "deserves to be nailed" (!!!) if they are innocent victims going about their daily lives
No innocent victim deserves to be nailed. But if an untrained person thinks they can do THIS (see video below), they are headed for grief.

I believe this movie and this scene from that movie started the tactical pen thing:


Man they’ve really clipped your wings over there.
Thank Allah I'm Asian. :cool:

EDIT:

Forgot to mention the most important thing.... I think the idea behind the tactical pen is to look non-aggressive while being ready for aggression. It is not an obvious weapon. Can it kill? Oh yes! If it can bash through a coconut, it can bash through a human skull (yes I tested it).

But there is something else that is also very useful. Steel capped boots. They work. They save you from hurt. And you get to take out someone's knees easily. And they don't look aggressive.

And for certain people who have English comprehension issues... I am not "endorsing" or advocating violence. This is a hypothetical discussion and this is how all self-defense people talk... "what if..."

So chill.
 

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As I said, it saved my life once... but these batons are often very cheap and made of un-tempered steel. So it bent and wouldn't close again (but it had done it's job). I bought another one the next day. And I made something in my own workshop that's far better.

I think the question is... if you are stuck in a bad situation... are you most likely to deal with one or two attackers ... where a tactical pen might work... or are you going to have a mob come at you?

It is different for each country. I have only ever been attacked by a pair. It's always a pair.

In India, next door, on the other hand, being attacked by a mob seems the norm.

In both cases, pepper spray will work.

And if you think you are a martial arts expert... this is how martial arts experts get nailed... they learn nunchucks. :ROFLMAO: ... the most USELESS overrated martial arts weapon ever. It was created by morons for morons. An expandable baton actually works without going through the risk of hurting yourself.

Second most useless weapon is a knuckle duster. It works... but it'll work even better if you chuck it at someone like a rock. Why did one even spend money on that poop.... I was just curious.
 

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Mojave Mo
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So when Pepper Spray was being packaged for public use myself and a few associates were given a box of ‘this stuff’ to go run some tests and take some notes for the manufacturer. We were all staying in a hotel in Miami and decided to open a window (yea, you used to be able to open hotel windows) and shoot a spray out the window to see what kind of distance we’d get. I am sure many of you can tell the story from here right? Since we were around 25 floors up and the sea breeze was blowing the spray ionized and got sucked right back into the hotel room! 😳 Six guys screaming and cussing and blowing snot all over the place. Good times. We had all had experience with how to keep from getting dead from gas discharge, but this surprise attack was, well, a surprise! 🤣 Speaking of which. Do you know why Bill Cosby’s eyes are always red during sex? It’s the Pepper Spray.
 

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I've been practicing... on and off... some kind of martial art since before I was ten. And in my opinion, if you are not trained in even basic hand to hand, carrying a tactical pen won't help you in any way.

Knuckle dusters are for amateurs who don't know they'll break their own fingers when they use those. 🤣

Stun guns are also over-hyped garbage. Taser.... will work on one guy, not on two. And if you are confronted by the mythical Arab refugee mob... well they never mug you alone. Arabs are a mob people.

Best self defense tool? Knife, of course. But are you prepared to draw blood??? Are you prepared to deal with the "good guys"... the legal system... later? I sure am not.

So there is only ONE weapon that actually works and can stop more than one attacker in their tracks INSTANTLY (I have seen it used).

Pepper spray. Get a dispenser that fits on a key chain. Nobody can even see you are armed. Look for a brand called "Sabre Red".
View attachment 354594
And get basic training, THEN you can dream of tactical pens or expanding batons.

Jason Bourne, we are not. 🤣
Exactly what you say, if you're not ready to fight, no amount of weapons will help. Anything will be used as weapon in emergency.
 

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something like pepper spray or a tactical pen to gain valuable time for an escape to safety....non-lethal self defense...
Pepper spray WILL give you time to get away or do worse to the bad guy. You have plenty of time once the guy's breathing is compromised and eyes are not working so good ... he can't do much to you right then because he feels like he is dying.

A tactical pen will most likely only give you time to get away if the injury caused by the pen is bad enough for you to get some jail time. Who told you a tactical pen is non-lethal??? It is "less than lethal"... not "non-lethal". It can even go lethal by accident.

become a raging animal
Arrogance and indignation are more useful than rage.
 

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I always wonder about how effective those things are. I worked with a tow truck driver for a few years. Avg build, no real fight training except the occasional scrap. He did a repo job once and the owner of the car came out and attacked him with a 3" folding knife. The driver took 7 puncture wounds, including one to his neck, before he beat the brakes off the other guy with his fists. The driver recovered from his wounds later, but at the time he said he didn't even feel the knife, and didn't even know the other guy had it till he'd been stabbed a couple times. He still managed to beat the other guy into a puddle and could have easily killed him before succumbing to his own injuries.

I work with patients at a mental hospital and we restrain them frequently. I'm 6'1" and 220lbs, but I've been ragdolled by guys 6" shorter and 40lbs lighter. When they're hopped up on drugs or fearing for their life they're just way too strong for one person to handle (of course we're trying not to harm them either).

I guess what I'm getting at is it may just come down to the mentality and demeanor of the assailant. A pen is better than nothing, but if someone's blood is up there's a good chance they won't be deterred unless they take major damage to their skeletal or nervous system. I don't know if pain will be much of a deterrent. If someone is just trying to grab your wallet and scared/nervous, you can probably chase them off a little easier though.

Good luck out there and stay safe! If immigration laws are relaxing over there maybe I should take another look. Switzerland was always on my short list of European countries I'd like to move to, but when did research it seemed pretty difficult to move there, let alone find a job in my field.
 
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