Slingshots Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,253 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I am begining to enjoy building slingshots for myself because it is great for destressing. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I would just like to understand where the lines are drawn when it comes to building designs created by others.

So if say, I wanted to build an Axiom or a Scorpion should I first get permission from Nathan or Bill?

Also what if I were building a modified derivative of someone else's design, would it be enough to just credit the original or do I need permission too?

And if I am not in the USA and I wanted to build an aluminium core slingshot, would I need permission from the patent holder? Or can I just ignore it and build as I please for myself? I take issue with that patent but I have long missed the boat to complain about it so I will just hold my tongue. I see builders in the UK making that which should not be copied. Curious if those were done with permission or in defiance?

Also, fork designs seem to converge anyway and if I inadvertantly build something somewhat similar to someone else's design, would that be scorned upon?

Can I assume that anything shared as a public template can be built without restriction?

Also, I can pretty much work out a build from a photo and one or two critical dimensions. Just as easy to simply trace a set of forks to create a template... If I do that would that be scorned upon too?

I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds.

Thanks for any pointers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,424 Posts
If the builds are not for profit, then it should be ok.
As for the metal core.......well, the patent applies only in the USA, so the rest of the world is free to build using the techniques that were known before the patent came to be anyway.
In any case, even in the US, if the build is for personal use, you don't need to worry about the patent, you don't get any profits, so why should you?
 

·
Freezin' my Butt Off
Joined
·
709 Posts
Skropi hit the nail on the head. As long as you don’t do it for profit, and you give credit where credit is due, you should be good to go. I have wondered about the templates in the template section myself. I like some of the frames enough to make a bunch and sell them, and wasn’t sure if that would be kosher.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
928 Posts
Hello Urbanshooter,

I always like to read your thoughtful comments, hope I can add to the perspective. The best practice if you directly ask the particular designer about this topic. Some cases there are more than just making a version of yours. There may be pending operations, so asking directly is much better then just giving credit at the end.

Beyond giving credit and non-commercial builds it worth to contact with the original designer:

  • The design needs an update, maybe the designer already started working on it before your own idea
  • There is an other pending project from someone else that might overlap with yours
  • If the designer suggest you to drop the idea (for whatever legal reason, like pending business, or patent, or production) you don't waste too much time and there is no conflict, just clean talk
  • The original designer has some intentions or ideas, like not promoting a particular design for beginners or for heavy bandsets etc.
  • You can get suggestions and guidelines for your build, materials, thickness, shooting style etc. basically you can get support
  • If you are making a custom one off that's actually a nice piece of craftsmanship then there is a chance you will be promoted by the original designer too. Happened many times and it feels good for both party. Also plays nice for the fellow makers as an example of a fruitful collaboration.
  • Even for a metal core ask the patent holder about the possibilities.

Hope this insight adds shades to the topic.

Have a good weekend!

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,384 Posts
Urbanshooter: "I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds."

I will assume that from a legal standpoint, this is what really counts. That said, anything that does not have patent coverage of any kind can be legally copied and sold by anyone. If patent coverage does apply, it may only do so in the countries where it was requested and granted. International patent coverage is extremely expensive, and many manufacturers thus do not have it.

An example of a foreign copy (NB: unless this is an authorized seller in China, hard to tell): the "Ocularis" slingshot by "SimpleShot": http://www.engtaobao.com/item/taobao/568283572862.html

The etiquette perspective as to whether it is right to copy and sell the ideas, development, and actual designs of someone else who does not have patent coverage, is another issue altogether: if the design is in the public domain (templates on forums, etc.), I do no see any problems.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,192 Posts
Exactly what Tremo said. Always best practice to ask first.

Bill Hays has offered many of his designs as public domain (in the template section) - not ALL though - and he does require that his name is recognised with the final product you make.

Which is another point - designs which are readily available may have specific rights attached. So just be sure you are aware of any rights which may be attributed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,105 Posts
Everyone here has already said my opinion for me LOL, but essentially I feel like I can make whatever I want as long as it's just for me and I'm not giving it to anyone else - like copying music or movies for personal use. That said, Tremo's advice is all perfectly sound and very reasonable, heed it. I try to think of these complex subjects in simplest terms, as far as the train of thought/intent that went into your build.

Like this, when you saw a design you liked did you say to yourself:

A) Thats a wicked design - I think Ive got the materials, skills & know how to make one for myself!

Or

B) I like that design, I inexpensive imitations of it would quite sell nicely...

If you answered A, youre probably solid.

If you answered B, get off this forum ya' filthy commie. ;)

Hope that helps!

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
407 Posts
Make what you want.

If you copy somebodies design and claim it as your own I might not like you, but then I've come up with what I thought were original designs before only to realize they are practically the same as another's. There are only so many comfortable y shapes out there, and the best ones have already been claimed.

If you ruffle the feathers of a vendor your forum content will likely be removed. I've only experienced that on the community, but there is evidence in the old threads here of the same thing, Which ironically is why I went to the other forum in the first place. :iono:
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,043 Posts
So I am begining to enjoy building slingshots for myself because it is great for destressing. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I would just like to understand where the lines are drawn when it comes to building designs created by others.

So if say, I wanted to build an Axiom or a Scorpion should I first get permission from Nathan or Bill?

Also what if I were building a modified derivative of someone else's design, would it be enough to just credit the original or do I need permission too?

And if I am not in the USA and I wanted to build an aluminium core slingshot, would I need permission from the patent holder? Or can I just ignore it and build as I please for myself? I take issue with that patent but I have long missed the boat to complain about it so I will just hold my tongue. I see builders in the UK making that which should not be copied. Curious if those were done with permission or in defiance?

Also, fork designs seem to converge anyway and if I inadvertantly build something somewhat similar to someone else's design, would that be scorned upon?

Can I assume that anything shared as a public template can be built without restriction?

Also, I can pretty much work out a build from a photo and one or two critical dimensions. Just as easy to simply trace a set of forks to create a template... If I do that would that be scorned upon too?

I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds.

Thanks for any pointers.
I for one, don't mind if someone uses one of my designs... and I don't even care if credit is given either.

What I do find annoying is when someone uses one of my designs, wholly or in a large part, and then proclaims it's something new, unique, calls it their own and gives it a different name...

And the reason I find it extremely annoying is I simply don't use other peoples designs or designs concepts without giving full credit to whom it belongs... and I expect the same consideration from others.

So for example when I see someone offering a sideshooter design and calling it something else, then giving permission to others to copy "their" design... or making templates of my existing designs and only changing them in the slightest way and acting like they've come up with something fantastic... I really don't like that.

However, what you're talking about... I really don't mind, and in fact tend to encourage it... the best case scenario being you coming up with something that's an improvement over the original... and by the way, THAT's the reason all my templates that I put into the templates section are fairly rough renditions, to encourage change... but some others have taken it upon themselves to do 2d cad versions of some of my stuff and post in there as well... I appreciate the thought and the work, but honestly I can and do use cad myself, if I wanted specific dimensions and perfect lines, I would have posted it like that in the first place.

So please, take what I and others have posted and build upon it... make a better slingshot, not the same!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,424 Posts
Bill, I did as you say with the top shot and the ranger. Made two altered versions, in size only, to fit my style.
My style changed, but that's another story.
Anyway, you are right, the whole point of building your own copy/imitation/original or whatever, is to make it personal, not blindly copy something.
 

·
Freezin' my Butt Off
Joined
·
709 Posts
So I am begining to enjoy building slingshots for myself because it is great for destressing. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I would just like to understand where the lines are drawn when it comes to building designs created by others.
So if say, I wanted to build an Axiom or a Scorpion should I first get permission from Nathan or Bill?
Also what if I were building a modified derivative of someone else's design, would it be enough to just credit the original or do I need permission too?
And if I am not in the USA and I wanted to build an aluminium core slingshot, would I need permission from the patent holder? Or can I just ignore it and build as I please for myself? I take issue with that patent but I have long missed the boat to complain about it so I will just hold my tongue. I see builders in the UK making that which should not be copied. Curious if those were done with permission or in defiance?
Also, fork designs seem to converge anyway and if I inadvertantly build something somewhat similar to someone else's design, would that be scorned upon?
Can I assume that anything shared as a public template can be built without restriction?
Also, I can pretty much work out a build from a photo and one or two critical dimensions. Just as easy to simply trace a set of forks to create a template... If I do that would that be scorned upon too?
I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds.
Thanks for any pointers.
I for one, don't mind if someone uses one of my designs... and I don't even care if credit is given either.
What I do find annoying is when someone uses one of my designs, wholly or in a large part, and then proclaims it's something new, unique, calls it their own and gives it a different name...

And the reason I find it extremely annoying is I simply don't use other peoples designs or designs concepts without giving full credit to whom it belongs... and I expect the same consideration from others.
So for example when I see someone offering a sideshooter design and calling it something else, then giving permission to others to copy "their" design... or making templates of my existing designs and only changing them in the slightest way and acting like they've come up with something fantastic... I really don't like that.

However, what you're talking about... I really don't mind, and in fact tend to encourage it... the best case scenario being you coming up with something that's an improvement over the original... and by the way, THAT's the reason all my templates that I put into the templates section are fairly rough renditions, to encourage change... but some others have taken it upon themselves to do 2d cad versions of some of my stuff and post in there as well... I appreciate the thought and the work, but honestly I can and do use cad myself, if I wanted specific dimensions and perfect lines, I would have posted it like that in the first place.
So please, take what I and others have posted and build upon it... make a better slingshot, not the same!
Mr Hays, I was wondering if I could use a template that you posted in the template section, such as the Ring Finger Hunter, and make some to sell. Would that be OK? Of course I would leave the name the same, and mention that you were the designer.

Cheers,
The Norseman
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,105 Posts
So I am begining to enjoy building slingshots for myself because it is great for destressing. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I would just like to understand where the lines are drawn when it comes to building designs created by others.

So if say, I wanted to build an Axiom or a Scorpion should I first get permission from Nathan or Bill?

Also what if I were building a modified derivative of someone else's design, would it be enough to just credit the original or do I need permission too?

And if I am not in the USA and I wanted to build an aluminium core slingshot, would I need permission from the patent holder? Or can I just ignore it and build as I please for myself? I take issue with that patent but I have long missed the boat to complain about it so I will just hold my tongue. I see builders in the UK making that which should not be copied. Curious if those were done with permission or in defiance?

Also, fork designs seem to converge anyway and if I inadvertantly build something somewhat similar to someone else's design, would that be scorned upon?

Can I assume that anything shared as a public template can be built without restriction?

Also, I can pretty much work out a build from a photo and one or two critical dimensions. Just as easy to simply trace a set of forks to create a template... If I do that would that be scorned upon too?

I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds.

Thanks for any pointers.
I for one, don't mind if someone uses one of my designs... and I don't even care if credit is given either.
What I do find annoying is when someone uses one of my designs, wholly or in a large part, and then proclaims it's something new, unique, calls it their own and gives it a different name...

And the reason I find it extremely annoying is I simply don't use other peoples designs or designs concepts without giving full credit to whom it belongs... and I expect the same consideration from others.
So for example when I see someone offering a sideshooter design and calling it something else, then giving permission to others to copy "their" design... or making templates of my existing designs and only changing them in the slightest way and acting like they've come up with something fantastic... I really don't like that.

However, what you're talking about... I really don't mind, and in fact tend to encourage it... the best case scenario being you coming up with something that's an improvement over the original... and by the way, THAT's the reason all my templates that I put into the templates section are fairly rough renditions, to encourage change... but some others have taken it upon themselves to do 2d cad versions of some of my stuff and post in there as well... I appreciate the thought and the work, but honestly I can and do use cad myself, if I wanted specific dimensions and perfect lines, I would have posted it like that in the first place.
So please, take what I and others have posted and build upon it... make a better slingshot, not the same!
I was hoping you I was hoping you would chime in Bill, great to hear your input on the subject. That last quote you said there is a keeper in my books "...build a better slingshot, not the same." - well put.

Sent using two thumbs and Tapatalk.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,043 Posts
So I am begining to enjoy building slingshots for myself because it is great for destressing. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I would just like to understand where the lines are drawn when it comes to building designs created by others.
So if say, I wanted to build an Axiom or a Scorpion should I first get permission from Nathan or Bill?
Also what if I were building a modified derivative of someone else's design, would it be enough to just credit the original or do I need permission too?
And if I am not in the USA and I wanted to build an aluminium core slingshot, would I need permission from the patent holder? Or can I just ignore it and build as I please for myself? I take issue with that patent but I have long missed the boat to complain about it so I will just hold my tongue. I see builders in the UK making that which should not be copied. Curious if those were done with permission or in defiance?
Also, fork designs seem to converge anyway and if I inadvertantly build something somewhat similar to someone else's design, would that be scorned upon?
Can I assume that anything shared as a public template can be built without restriction?
Also, I can pretty much work out a build from a photo and one or two critical dimensions. Just as easy to simply trace a set of forks to create a template... If I do that would that be scorned upon too?
I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds.
Thanks for any pointers.
I for one, don't mind if someone uses one of my designs... and I don't even care if credit is given either.
What I do find annoying is when someone uses one of my designs, wholly or in a large part, and then proclaims it's something new, unique, calls it their own and gives it a different name...

And the reason I find it extremely annoying is I simply don't use other peoples designs or designs concepts without giving full credit to whom it belongs... and I expect the same consideration from others.
So for example when I see someone offering a sideshooter design and calling it something else, then giving permission to others to copy "their" design... or making templates of my existing designs and only changing them in the slightest way and acting like they've come up with something fantastic... I really don't like that.

However, what you're talking about... I really don't mind, and in fact tend to encourage it... the best case scenario being you coming up with something that's an improvement over the original... and by the way, THAT's the reason all my templates that I put into the templates section are fairly rough renditions, to encourage change... but some others have taken it upon themselves to do 2d cad versions of some of my stuff and post in there as well... I appreciate the thought and the work, but honestly I can and do use cad myself, if I wanted specific dimensions and perfect lines, I would have posted it like that in the first place.
So please, take what I and others have posted and build upon it... make a better slingshot, not the same!
Mr Hays, I was wondering if I could use a template that you posted in the template section, such as the Ring Finger Hunter, and make some to sell. Would that be OK? Of course I would leave the name the same, and mention that you were the designer.

Cheers,
The Norseman
Sure that's fine.... anything in the templates section, you shouldn't even be required to ask... we all put them there for free use, as far as I know.
 

·
Freezin' my Butt Off
Joined
·
709 Posts
So I am begining to enjoy building slingshots for myself because it is great for destressing. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so I would just like to understand where the lines are drawn when it comes to building designs created by others.
So if say, I wanted to build an Axiom or a Scorpion should I first get permission from Nathan or Bill?
Also what if I were building a modified derivative of someone else's design, would it be enough to just credit the original or do I need permission too?
And if I am not in the USA and I wanted to build an aluminium core slingshot, would I need permission from the patent holder? Or can I just ignore it and build as I please for myself? I take issue with that patent but I have long missed the boat to complain about it so I will just hold my tongue. I see builders in the UK making that which should not be copied. Curious if those were done with permission or in defiance?
Also, fork designs seem to converge anyway and if I inadvertantly build something somewhat similar to someone else's design, would that be scorned upon?
Can I assume that anything shared as a public template can be built without restriction?
Also, I can pretty much work out a build from a photo and one or two critical dimensions. Just as easy to simply trace a set of forks to create a template... If I do that would that be scorned upon too?
I have no intentions for commercial gain from anything I would build. I don't want to sell anything. I just want to have fun building and shooting some of my own builds.
Thanks for any pointers.
I for one, don't mind if someone uses one of my designs... and I don't even care if credit is given either.
What I do find annoying is when someone uses one of my designs, wholly or in a large part, and then proclaims it's something new, unique, calls it their own and gives it a different name...

And the reason I find it extremely annoying is I simply don't use other peoples designs or designs concepts without giving full credit to whom it belongs... and I expect the same consideration from others.
So for example when I see someone offering a sideshooter design and calling it something else, then giving permission to others to copy "their" design... or making templates of my existing designs and only changing them in the slightest way and acting like they've come up with something fantastic... I really don't like that.

However, what you're talking about... I really don't mind, and in fact tend to encourage it... the best case scenario being you coming up with something that's an improvement over the original... and by the way, THAT's the reason all my templates that I put into the templates section are fairly rough renditions, to encourage change... but some others have taken it upon themselves to do 2d cad versions of some of my stuff and post in there as well... I appreciate the thought and the work, but honestly I can and do use cad myself, if I wanted specific dimensions and perfect lines, I would have posted it like that in the first place.
So please, take what I and others have posted and build upon it... make a better slingshot, not the same!
Mr Hays, I was wondering if I could use a template that you posted in the template section, such as the Ring Finger Hunter, and make some to sell. Would that be OK? Of course I would leave the name the same, and mention that you were the designer.
Cheers,
The Norseman
Sure that's fine.... anything in the templates section, you shouldn't even be required to ask... we all put them there for free use, as far as I know.
Awesome! Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,253 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks so much to everyone for your responses! I was keen to hear what someone who builds and sells their designs would have to say and I am especially thankful that esteemed designers like Mark Seljan and Bill Hays chimed in.

I am certainly not worried about someone knocking on my door. Legally, I am quite clear on where I stand. It is the morals and general consensus that I am trying to get a handle on.

I want to respect those who came up with the brilliant stuff we all enjoy and when someone is also doing it as a business I would try support them as an enthusiast with hope and prayers that their businesses grow to continue enabling this passion of many. The respect given is simply because that respect has been earned and is well deserved.

Not all designers and makers are as gracious and supportive of the hobby as Mr. Hays (you might be the patron saint of slingshots!). Thank you Sir!

And thank you Mark a.k.a. Tremoside for your very well reasoned response. You highlighted much that I hadn't thought about and hearing it from a designer's perspective is very educational. I have no doubts now about the benefit of simply asking as what you have drawn attention to are very practical real world reasons that goes beyond just respect.

For guys who are new on the block like me I sense there might have been occassions where arising situations have shaped the general consensus of the community, creating a loose set of unwritten rules perhaps known only by those who have been around long enough. I thought I would just ask all you nice people to fill me. Thanks again!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,192 Posts
All templates in the template section are assumed free to use for personal use. There are some that do have certain rights attributed - Not for commercial use / Attribution required etc. If nothing is granted then assume its public domain.

There are some designs which though were offered to Public Domain are produced by certain manufacturers and any available templates have become much harder to obtain.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top