SOTM - voting approach considerations
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I have received some criticism for choices I have made with regards to the winners of certain of the SOTM's - and there has been a few instances where members have requested to return to a voting system.
I have a weighting process I follow - aesthetics / perceived shoot-ability / materials used / approach / technology... As a result the most blinging frame isn't always the one that makes the cut. So I'm sure in some cases people may be left scratching their heads in bewilderment
Though as its currently up to me I stand by those decisions.
I am pretty loath to offer a votable platform as its been a contentious issue and was open to some severe abuse in the past. When I restarted SOTM I realised almost instantly by removing this 'function' the results would be more fair. Ironic - but thats the way it is.
But in fairness I will offer it up to the members whether they would absolutely prefer a vote option for further SOTM. One member suggested looking at a platform which would allow non-members the choice to vote as well... Which I can look into.
I have a weighting process I follow - aesthetics / perceived shoot-ability / materials used / approach / technology... As a result the most blinging frame isn't always the one that makes the cut. So I'm sure in some cases people may be left scratching their heads in bewilderment
Though as its currently up to me I stand by those decisions.I am pretty loath to offer a votable platform as its been a contentious issue and was open to some severe abuse in the past. When I restarted SOTM I realised almost instantly by removing this 'function' the results would be more fair. Ironic - but thats the way it is.
But in fairness I will offer it up to the members whether they would absolutely prefer a vote option for further SOTM. One member suggested looking at a platform which would allow non-members the choice to vote as well... Which I can look into.
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Ah - sorry
In the original SOTM the frames would be collected - and members could vote for their favourite one. The most votes would win.
Though people would have their friends vote on their behalf - sometimes bullying them. Also there would be 'spats' on approach - natty's were generally considered as degenerate vs anything cored etc.
Let's say it got messy - messy enough for almost half of the forum members to either have left the forum or were outright banned.
When I first took over SOTM I did a vote to win type approach - though it was evident by the 4th month that the system was being abused. So I stopped it by the 6th month. And as such when I relaunched it after much consideration I set up certain parameters to keep the whole thing fair and be possible to have longevity. Voting was one of the first things I dropped and assumed the burden of a personal judgement.
So choose carefully
In the original SOTM the frames would be collected - and members could vote for their favourite one. The most votes would win.
Though people would have their friends vote on their behalf - sometimes bullying them. Also there would be 'spats' on approach - natty's were generally considered as degenerate vs anything cored etc.
Let's say it got messy - messy enough for almost half of the forum members to either have left the forum or were outright banned.
When I first took over SOTM I did a vote to win type approach - though it was evident by the 4th month that the system was being abused. So I stopped it by the 6th month. And as such when I relaunched it after much consideration I set up certain parameters to keep the whole thing fair and be possible to have longevity. Voting was one of the first things I dropped and assumed the burden of a personal judgement.
So choose carefully
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1,493 Posts
When one person evaluates and decides, well, you get China....err, not good.
Voting extended to the wider forum readership, most of whom are non-members, would solve the inherent bias that comes from member votes only, where people generally know and invariably support each other.
Judging by the overall numbers (thousands) of views of the monthly competitions, the number of non-member votes could constitute a large enough sample to generate a truly objective assessment of the work submitted by competition participants.
A non-member vote may also encourage more non-members to become active members, thus creating a stronger presence of this forum on the web.
Why not give it a shot?
Voting extended to the wider forum readership, most of whom are non-members, would solve the inherent bias that comes from member votes only, where people generally know and invariably support each other.
Judging by the overall numbers (thousands) of views of the monthly competitions, the number of non-member votes could constitute a large enough sample to generate a truly objective assessment of the work submitted by competition participants.
A non-member vote may also encourage more non-members to become active members, thus creating a stronger presence of this forum on the web.
Why not give it a shot?
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I'm fine with it either way Matt, I'm an easy going fella and I really enjoy what your doing with this competition. Altho I might not agree with every winner you choose I agree with how you choose a winner. And if it were me judging I can guarantee that there would be a lot of people disagreeing with me
If there's one person to judge a competition it's you. The problem I see when it comes to judging is that it becomes a popularity contest. I for one have a lot of good friends on here and I can say that it would be hard to vote on a frame that they didn't do even if it were the "nicer" frame.
The last ssotm burnt out because of a voting problem...were a year into this one and it's still going strong IMO. No matter what platform you choose there's gonna be hair bent folks....just the way it is and we'll always be.
If there's one person to judge a competition it's you. The problem I see when it comes to judging is that it becomes a popularity contest. I for one have a lot of good friends on here and I can say that it would be hard to vote on a frame that they didn't do even if it were the "nicer" frame.
The last ssotm burnt out because of a voting problem...were a year into this one and it's still going strong IMO. No matter what platform you choose there's gonna be hair bent folks....just the way it is and we'll always be.
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It was suggested placing the voting platform somewhere publicly accessible - so that it's not just members that have access to the voting. Which could help maybe.
Think the one issue is that actual member wise we are a fairly limited bunch - so making choices very quickly can sway results.
TBH - some months literally result in ulcers. Weighing up criteria and approaches...
Also ts worth mentioning that sometimes the best looking frame can have some less than desirable fit and finish - its easily missed if not scrutinised carefully.
Think the one issue is that actual member wise we are a fairly limited bunch - so making choices very quickly can sway results.
TBH - some months literally result in ulcers. Weighing up criteria and approaches...
Also ts worth mentioning that sometimes the best looking frame can have some less than desirable fit and finish - its easily missed if not scrutinised carefully.
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Mattwalt: "just know - it could be a SOTM killer."
I don't think so, because it's one thing having long-term forum (fictive!) members Joe.Jack, and Jane voting, or even bullying (!!!) for each other to get the prize, and another ballgame altogether when you have a fairly vast number of voters consisting of forum members and non-forum members, because the likelihood of all non-members actually knowing each other to the extent that they would "lobby" for a forum friend is somewhat lower.
It's a bit like the difference between living in a small village where everyone knows each other, and living in a huge city where most people are largely anonymous. The problem with the village is that the chief and his cronies tend to get what they want, regardless of the "underlings".
Another way to put it is the classic "old boys network" where one hand rubs the other, as opposed to the wider, more amorphous public when it comes to voting on crucial issues in companies or in politics. According to the way you describe your past SOTM experiences, it seems as though the former must have ruled galore. :hmm:
As they say, nothing ventured is nothing gained: maybe it's worth trying another approach for a while. If it fails, simply revert to plan A (like now). However, the way forward will of course ultimately depend on whether the current forum members are happy with the present SOTM format or not.
I'm curious to see what the others think about this issue.
I don't think so, because it's one thing having long-term forum (fictive!) members Joe.Jack, and Jane voting, or even bullying (!!!) for each other to get the prize, and another ballgame altogether when you have a fairly vast number of voters consisting of forum members and non-forum members, because the likelihood of all non-members actually knowing each other to the extent that they would "lobby" for a forum friend is somewhat lower.
It's a bit like the difference between living in a small village where everyone knows each other, and living in a huge city where most people are largely anonymous. The problem with the village is that the chief and his cronies tend to get what they want, regardless of the "underlings".
Another way to put it is the classic "old boys network" where one hand rubs the other, as opposed to the wider, more amorphous public when it comes to voting on crucial issues in companies or in politics. According to the way you describe your past SOTM experiences, it seems as though the former must have ruled galore. :hmm:
As they say, nothing ventured is nothing gained: maybe it's worth trying another approach for a while. If it fails, simply revert to plan A (like now). However, the way forward will of course ultimately depend on whether the current forum members are happy with the present SOTM format or not.
I'm curious to see what the others think about this issue.
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442 Posts
As someone who just participated in their first month, I really enjoyed the process. I appreciate all the work Matt takes on to make it happen each month. With the issues that plagued the event in the past, the current way seems refreshing and fun.
From my perspective, as it's not a commercial venture, I'm not in it to win it. It's more of pushing myself, and enjoying what others create within the criteria.
It almost feels more casual this way, and as a result people are more free to enjoy the processes rather than take it too seriously.
If it goes the way of voting, I'd still be fine with it, but hope it wouldn't kill the current community spirit that it has now.
From my perspective, as it's not a commercial venture, I'm not in it to win it. It's more of pushing myself, and enjoying what others create within the criteria.
It almost feels more casual this way, and as a result people are more free to enjoy the processes rather than take it too seriously.
If it goes the way of voting, I'd still be fine with it, but hope it wouldn't kill the current community spirit that it has now.
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TBF - Nathan (Simple Shot) and Bill (Pocket Predator) and think Game Keeper John and many other 'big' names used to be part of the original - and quite a few other well known custom makers. Some of them definitely used the platform as advertising for their work. So there is the potential to have it be come a financial bonus. Which was one of the reasons members were being aggressive in collecting badges.
I like the fact that currently is pretty light hearted - and thats mainly due to the members who participate. Though bummed Mo's entries have started to be pretty darn slick these days...
I like the fact that currently is pretty light hearted - and thats mainly due to the members who participate. Though bummed Mo's entries have started to be pretty darn slick these days...
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Another option is to continue to include guest or volunteer judges like with the bark on natty month. A panel brings different opinions and viewpoints.
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I say put it to a vote, hopefully it will keep you from any criticism. I hope none of it was personal, there's too many great people here to be tainted by a few.
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Honestly I'd think a panel would be the way to go. Entries could be discussed and critiqued - a bit more Forged in Fire. Think it would be the most beneficial and fair. Though the judges would need to be builders of some skill and would not be able to enter their own work.
I do understand the hesitancy of interest - it opens people up to a degree of criticism and abuse.
I do understand the hesitancy of interest - it opens people up to a degree of criticism and abuse.
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"natty's were generally considered as degenerate vs anything cored etc."
...I knew I was a degenerate pig!! :rolling: :rolling:
Matt, this is all fun and games. But you've shown you're a correct and stand-up guy in posting this question to the ballots.
There's only one thing that unite us all in this forum: our passion for slingshots, whether for shooting them or building them.
Something beyond that should always be disregarded by the members as belonging to a different set of values.
Best regards!!
Q
...I knew I was a degenerate pig!! :rolling: :rolling:
Matt, this is all fun and games. But you've shown you're a correct and stand-up guy in posting this question to the ballots.
There's only one thing that unite us all in this forum: our passion for slingshots, whether for shooting them or building them.
Something beyond that should always be disregarded by the members as belonging to a different set of values.
Best regards!!
Q
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249 Posts
Maybe a voting/scoring with rubric?
aesthetics (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
perceived shoot-ability (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
materials used (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
approach (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
technology (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
Then average out the final scores and total.
Just a thought.
aesthetics (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
perceived shoot-ability (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
materials used (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
approach (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
technology (Circle Your Score) - 1 2 3 4 5 - Provide a brief explanation of your score _________________________
Then average out the final scores and total.
Just a thought.
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