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Secretstallion....have you compared your freehand shooting to the machine shooting numbers? It would be interesting to see a few examples. I'm curious if the freehand produces a bit higher numbers. A machine release is completely dead. Freehand shooting can produce a bit more power from an active release and/or a frame flip.
 

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Secretstallion... I fully understand the great resource that this test data is. It compares apples-to-apples by duplicating the shot style. It let's us see what happens with changes to various band thicknesses, widths and ammo weights. This all helps us chose a more efficient band for a desired purpose. It was important to fully address PP's question from all angles, as you are now doing. All the machine shots will be slower than a freehand shot unless the shooter is collapsing their back tension at the moment of release (shooting error).

Wrist "flicking" is not really cheating. It's a shooting style that many use. I use the flip style even when shooting 50-75 yards. Duplicating the flip gives consistent results. We had one member who could hit bottle caps at 20 yards when flipping.

A "dead" testing rig refers to the completely static shot. The frame is fixed in position. The pouch hold is fixed. The pouch does not move backwards at all during the shot (after clamped in jaws). In comparison, some shooters will draw, pause and then use a pull-through release (active release). This gives more speed and sometimes helps with their accuracy by keeping the draw linear. Some shooters flip the frame and do well with accuracy.

To summarize, you have the following reasons why the machine is slower than freehand shots.

oversized pouch

oversized tabs at pouch

dead frame on machine

static pouch release

Thanks for doing the test to prove that the freehand shot is faster. I'm surprised at the huge difference. As said from the beginning, the data is an IDEA and a place to start when picking bands. It's a very valuable tool and the consistently slower numbers make it no less valuable. We all shoot a bit different so even if you freehand shot it would not guaranty the same numbers for the next shooter.

As a bit of a sidebar, I do all my testing freehand and it takes far too much time but does tell me what I am actually getting when I shoot. The shortfall of this method is that we are often limited to how much we can shoot the same each session. I like to rest a bit after a test and then recheck the numbers with a few shots later in the day or the next day. I flip during the test and flip when shooting at targets. I usually pick a spot past the chronograph to focus on and try to shoot as I always do. As for consistency here are some numbers I got last night. I use 10 shots because I don't trust myself like I would be able to trust a machine. The machine would save me a lot of time if I was comparing bands.

244, 246, 247, 245, 249, 246, 247, 245, 247, 247 - ave = 246 fps

274, 277,274,274, 276, 275, 276,278, 278, 277 - ave = 276 fps

Thanks again for all the numbers! The data saved me from wasting time with thick bands for small 1/4" and 5/16" ammo. The data also helped me see the big advantage of tapers.

One thing missing from the data would not be possible to record accurately. Shooters often wonder approx how many shots were possible from a bandcut at a set draw length. This info can have a bearing on band selection. Unfortunately, there are too many variables with shot count but enough tests could give an approx number that would take too much time to get.

As mentioned above, the other factor is the feel of the band. Lots of us enjoy the stretchy bands that don't feel like an overdrawn recurve bow (stack). It would take months to record the feel on each bandcut and then it would only be your opinion instead of a measurable fact. This topic can be chatted about in other forum posts. The numbers that I posted above were for Precise Orange .55mm - 5/8" x 7/16" x 7 1/4" with 5/16" and 1/4" ammo (32" draw). These bands were once a bit wider and didn't feel smooth and they shot a bit slower. I trimmed them down which reduced draw weight about 12 oz and increased speed a bit. The band went from feeling stiff to feeling much better. Personal opinion only.
 

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Hi Secretstallion... I made an embarrassing typo-error. The Gen2 Orange Precise that I tested is .50mm, not .55mm. I do have some .55mm Yellow Gen2 that feels great but most of the data was already posted here a while back. Once my Precise Gen2 supply gets low I will order some Gen3.

Yes, I'm intentionally bringing a bit more clarity to your excellent information to benefit everyone. Reading all this great data is almost overwhelming (in a good way).

I plan to cut the same 3/4 x 3/8 Pink Sum .45mm for my next set. My ammo preference is mainly 1/4" and 5/16" (haven't tried 7mm yet). My current mild bandset is Pink .45mm Sumeike at 20mm x 13mm x 195mm. I just clocked it at 243fps average with my 32" draw length and 1/4" steel ammo (6.35mm).
 

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Can you show an ideal (approx is enough) Width / Taper / Elongation Ratio-(Active Length) / Thickness / PER ammo?

It looks like the info you are seeking might be at the lower end of his data. He addresses the active length question as follows.

I don't include the actual length of the band in the results for 2 reasons.

1). We all have different draw lengths.

2). The band length could be 10mm or more out because of the natural stretch increase over time.

Besides, we all know when we have pulled the band to or close to maximum stretch.

The following subtitles rank the bands from fastest downward. If you want the fastest in each category then it would be the top band listed in the desired category. If the draw weight is a bit more than you prefer then move down the category list until you find the highest speed with your acceptable draw weight. This method of ranking in categories will help you to easily find the band with the fastest speed for your desired max draw weight.

Categories

Ammo - 6mm - FPS OF 270 AND ABOVE

Ammo - 7mm - FPS OF 250 AND ABOVE

Ammo - 8mm - FPS OF 230 AND ABOVE

Ammo - 9.5mm - FPS OF 200 AND ABOVE

Ammo - 6mm - FPS FOR TOP 6 STRAIGHT BAND CUTS

Ammo - 7mm - FPS FOR TOP 6 STRAIGHT BAND CUTS

Ammo - 8mm - FPS FOR TOP 6 STRAIGHT BAND CUTS

Ammo - 9.5mm - FPS FOR TOP 6 STRAIGHT BAND CUTS

Ammo - 6mm - FPS FOR DRAW WEIGHTS OF 6 AND BELOW

Ammo - 7mm - FPS FOR DRAW WEIGHTS OF 6 AND BELOW

Hope this helps
 

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thanks secret stallion. I am using precise 3rd gen .75, have been thinking of going to .65 on your findings. less band weight more speed maybe, for 8mm steel and 6mm . the .75 is very snappy, I found and if you don't cut it right it doesn't perform as it can. what do you recommend secret stallion regards robbo
I'm looking forward to his answer. Maybe your question should include your max draw weight. I shoot 6, 7 and 8mm steel ammo but I like a lighter draw weight so I'm thinking of .45, .50 or .55mm Precise Gen3. With a 32" draw length I should be fine.

Precise Gen3

Ammo - 6mm - FPS OF 290 AND ABOVE

FPS Band Cut DW Thickness

322 3/4 - 3/8 11.58 0.65

321 7/8 - 3/8 12.81 0.65

314 7/8 - 3/8 9.92 0.55

314 1 - 1/2 11.20 0.50

311 30 - 20 12.08 0.40

309 7/8 - 1/2 13.79 0.65

309 3/4 - 1/2 12.61 0.65

307 5/8 - 1/2 12.95 0.65

307 1 - 5/8 11.17 0.50

307 7/8 - 3/8 10.00 0.50

305 3/4 - 3/8 11.26 0.75

304 30 - 20 15.11 0.60

304 1 - 3/4 14.08 0.60

304 1 - 1/2 13.02 0.65

303 5/8 - 3/8 11.26 0.65

303 30 - 25 13.15 0.40

303 1 - 5/8 9.97 0.40

301 30 - 20 12.40 0.50

301 1 - 1/2 9.74 0.40

301 30 - 20 11.04 0.45

300 7/8 - 3/8 10.78 0.70

300 7/8 - 3/8 9.61 0.60

300 1 - 1/2 9.05 0.45

299 1 - 3/4 10.70 0.40

297 1 - 3/4 11.00 0.50

297 3/4 - 3/8 8.83 0.55

296 7/8 - 1/2 11.61 0.50

296 3/4 - 5/8 13.37 0.65

296 3/4 - 3/8 9.06 0.60

296 1 - 1/2 10.26 0.55

296 1 - 7/8 11.80 0.40

295 7/8 - 3/8 9.13 0.40

295 7/8 - 5/8 10.57 0.50

295 1 - 3/4 15.46 0.70

295 1 - 5/8 9.26 0.45

294 7/8 - 1/2 9.81 0.55

293 7/8 - 5/8 9.31 0.40

292 5/8 - 3/8 10.64 0.75

292 7/8 - 5/8 10.56 0.55

292 1 - 3/4 9.70 0.45

290 7/8 - 5/8 9.64 0.45

290 1 - 1/2 10.47 0.60

290 7/8 - 5/8 13.39 0.65

Ammo - 8mm - FPS OF 260 AND ABOVE

FPS Band Cut DW Thickness

280 30 - 20 15.11 0.60

277 3/4 - 3/8 11.58 0.65

276 1 - 3/4 15.46 0.70

276 1 - 3/4 14.08 0.60

276 7/8 - 1/2 13.79 0.65

275 1 - 1/2 13.02 0.65

274 7/8 - 3/8 12.81 0.65

270 30 - 25 13.15 0.40

270 3/4 - 1/2 12.61 0.65

269 7/8 - 7/8 15.97 0.70

269 30 - 20 12.40 0.50

269 30 - 20 12.08 0.40

268 30 - 25 16.18 0.60

268 1 - 1/2 11.20 0.50

267 3/4 - 3/8 11.26 0.75

267 5/8 - 1/2 12.95 0.65

266 1 - 5/8 11.17 0.50

266 3/4 - 5/8 13.37 0.65

265 7/8 - 5/8 13.39 0.65

264 7/8 - 3/8 10.78 0.70

263 1 - 3/4 11.00 0.50

263 1 - 5/8 14.05 0.65

261 30 - 25 12.94 0.50

260 7/8 - 3/8 9.92 0.55

260 1 - 1 15.76 0.60

260 30 - 20 15.98 0.70

Ammo - 6mm - FPS FOR DRAW WEIGHTS OF 7 AND BELOW

253 5/8 - 1/2 6.65 0.45

234 1/2 - 3/8 6.29 0.45

227 1/2 - 1/2 6.30 0.45

203 3/8 - 3/8 6.52 0.40

210 3/8 - 3/8 5.49 0.45
 

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I just finished a shooting session with Sumeike Pink .45mm. The bandset had snapped once already but I still had enough to tie again, although the pouch end was about 2mm wider than I wanted. Draw weight is very mild but I was getting some fingerslaps with the Taurus so I knew I was a bit overpowered for the ammo (except the 3/8"). I could probably trim down the pouch end and maintain the speed with the lighter ammo.

Sumeike Pink .45mm (32" draw length - 460% stretch)

20mm x 14mm x 176mm

3/8" steel = 188 fps

5/16" steel = 224 fps

7mm steel = 242 fps

1/4" steel = 253 fps

PS- These bands are not maxed out. I could likely shorten to get a bit more speed but I'm interested in longevity as well. Shot count is only at 77 but I'm hoping to beat 300 before a break.
 

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Hey SS,

My current fav is 20mm x 12mm x 195mm. Draw weight is only around 5 lb 6oz with a speed of 215fps with 5/16" steel. This band works well with 7mm too. When the band breaks it's always at the pouch so I end up with around 13-14mm width for the next set with the well used leftover.

I have a little pile of broken Sumeike Pink bands that are too short to use. All broke at the pouch and all were tied with the crystal tying string. This recent set was tied with size #3 crochet cotton with the hope of getting a bit more life (constrictor knot). The thin band is heavily stressed at the pouch but possibly the thicker soft cotton will add some life.
 

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Hey Northerner,

Thanks for posting your current favourite Sumeike setup.

I know what you mean about having a little pile of broken Sumeike Pink bands that are too short to use.

Although, I bet your broken bands are still long enough to cut into my sized bands because of my shorter overall length.

I am currently using Marlow No.4 Whipping Twine for tying my pouch, I believe it is 0.8mm.

It doesn't increase my band life though.
The bands that I mentioned above broke today. Shot count was only 193 with most being with 5/16" steel. Speed was 224fps and draw weight 6.75 lbs at my 32" draw length. I was hoping that the cotton string would give me a little more life from the bands but I guess short life is the trade-off for the band efficiency.
 

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I just finished testing another Pink Sumeike .45mm bandset for shot count. This set was cut 20mm x 13mm x 180mm and drawn to my usual 32" (812 mm) length. The pouch on this set was fastened with the crystal tying string. The band started to tear at shot #335 and was hanging by a thread size section at shot #342. This is an improvement from the first Pinks tested that only went 193 shots. I plan to keep track of another couple of sets to get an average.
 

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I broke another set of Pink Sumeike .45mm this morning. This set was a bit milder in draw weight but shot count was about the same. I used the crystal tying string and tri-fold on the bands at the pouch. Cut was 19mm x 13mm x 185mm and I shot mainly 5/16" steel ammo and a bit of 7mm. Speed was 216fps with 5/16" and 230 with 7mm. The tear at the pouch started at shot #320 and I got 11 more before the bands were hanging by a thread.

It's looking like the first shot test was not typical (193). The second and third tests were close (335 & 320).
 
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