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Good to see you too Matt....

If the ball and bands travel through the fork.... then it's TTF
If the ball pretty much goes over the top of the fork, maybe slightly through though, and the bands travel over the top of the fork... then it's OTT

Looped tube slingshots, if pulled directly back, are a form of TTF.
Against the ties like Rufus and some of his contemporaries, the ammo passed through the forks and so did the bands... of course some would give it a flip... therefore the name "flip" for a slingshot... but it's still TTF
Slotted forks like Milligan, Whammo and others used... TTF
Bent rod, big tube shooters, generally constrictor cuffed.... TTF
Big tube shooters like Madison Parker made.... TTF
Milbro and other big solids shooters... well the natural travel path without flipping is through the forks... so they're also TTF for the most part.
As far as I can tell, the only recent TTF tying/attachment type that is more or less new, is the way I and others started doing in 2010... bands or tubes run to the outside of the fork, travel path is inside.... so that like looking down the barrel of a shotgun... simply follow the line from anchor to target, release when everything is lined up right.

In fact, from what I've been able to tell from slingshots of old all the way to today, whether designed for forks upright, to the side or somewhere in between.... TTF has been far more popular and utilized over the course of history.

The only gray area would have to be tubes to tabs attachments.... the tabs are OTT, but makes the ammo and bands act more like TTF....

OTT, however, is not a new invention either though.... and I don't know when it was invented but slingshots from over 100 years ago, like the "Zip Zip" were shot with an OTT configuration....

Here's where Gary could lend some expertise.....!
 

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Bill - Yeah as mentioned I 100% agree That TTF is as mentioned.

My question is if the definition for TTF is simply too broad.

Should we Look at TTF-OTF (outside the fork) and TTF-ATF (attached through fork) - or look at separating the 2 styles totally. TTF and OTF. Basically we have attached so bands go around the outside of the fork - and then we have attached so the band/tube in some way exits the fork post on (or is attached to) the shooters side.

The traditional way of attaching bands where I grew up was a natural fork with a groove - bands wrapped around the groove and tied on the shooters side (TTF). Though a band-wrapped fork OTT is also used.

A similar discussion did come up a few years back - Gary's weigh in was insightful.

Its a totally useless discussion really - as it won't change anything - but just hypothetical.
 

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Good to see you too Matt....

If the ball and bands travel through the fork.... then it's TTF
If the ball pretty much goes over the top of the fork, maybe slightly through though, and the bands travel over the top of the fork... then it's OTT

Looped tube slingshots, if pulled directly back, are a form of TTF.
Against the ties like Rufus and some of his contemporaries, the ammo passed through the forks and so did the bands... of course some would give it a flip... therefore the name "flip" for a slingshot... but it's still TTF
Slotted forks like Milligan, Whammo and others used... TTF
Bent rod, big tube shooters, generally constrictor cuffed.... TTF
Big tube shooters like Madison Parker made.... TTF
Milbro and other big solids shooters... well the natural travel path without flipping is through the forks... so they're also TTF for the most part.
As far as I can tell, the only recent TTF tying/attachment type that is more or less new, is the way I and others started doing in 2010... bands or tubes run to the outside of the fork, travel path is inside.... so that like looking down the barrel of a shotgun... simply follow the line from anchor to target, release when everything is lined up right.

In fact, from what I've been able to tell from slingshots of old all the way to today, whether designed for forks upright, to the side or somewhere in between.... TTF has been far more popular and utilized over the course of history.

The only gray area would have to be tubes to tabs attachments.... the tabs are OTT, but makes the ammo and bands act more like TTF....

OTT, however, is not a new invention either though.... and I don't know when it was invented but slingshots from over 100 years ago, like the "Zip Zip" were shot with an OTT configuration....

Here's where Gary could lend some expertise.....!
I think you covered it all Big guy! The older models were OTT. TTF came a little later. Growing up I always shot TTF because all the popular Slingshots at the time were designed that way. Wham-O, Scope-Shot, Milligan, Ace, Mulders ,Deerslayer, Killdeer Etc. were all TTF. BTW just to add more confusion, I always called it TTT "Through The Throat"! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Bill! Nice to see you around :)
Yes - in the general definition ATT would be TTF. However I'd argue that the current understanding is that TTF would be ATS (Around the side) and that ATT actually isn't the same approach. Also If I have my Tibetan Antelope frame with the bands tied off through the band groove in ATT still be TTF (If only by extreme definition)?
Guess it brings up a point... OTT we all absolutely understand, but TTF is a grey area.
pic of ATT plz?
 

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I’m thinking of giving TTF another go just for the fun of it! I don’t really have enough info to form an opinion on accuracy since I’m primarily an OTT shooter. I do think it’s fun to try everything when it comes to slingshots though. You never know what will be enjoyable for you and knowing both setups is probably handy to learn anyway. If nothing else you get to collect a greater variety of cool slingshots. I’d like to try out the HTS one of these days whenever I’m able.

I’m a little jealous of that tractor mostly, if I had to be honest 😂. The things I could do with that baby!
 

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pic of ATT plz?
Unfortunately I'm in the process of moving - so my frames are between houses. But it's any attachment where the band is attached to a frame and the attachment is such that the bands arn't able to wrap around the forks. Often the bands would pass through the fork to exit on the shooters in one way or another. Matchstick / Ball in Tube / chinese handcuff (barnett style slingshots) / also short pseudo tubes I'd also bunch in with ATT - though If you were to wrap the bands around the forks and tie off on the shooters side it would be against the ties.

Having the bands wrap around the forks allows dow the bands to move past the frame on release - where against the ties they would essentially hit the forks. Though if you have the band (or tubes) to the best length by that time most of the energy would be depleted anyway.

As mentioned on many of my frames I use tubes and a matchstick approach (simple a hole drilled through the frame and a small section of paracord as matchstick - loop the tube and pull through the fork and hold in place with the matchstick on the target side of the frame. I prefer this setup as its accurate to set up - is a small mod which still allows for flat band - but also has almost zero friction between bands and fork.

The orange one is one of Portboy's
 

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why? if the tabs are OTT, then the bands will go OTT too, maybe "less OTT" but still OTT
No, not really.
A regular OTT setup has the elastic stretch over the front of the slingshot so that the little bit that is stretched over the front lip of the tip causes the bands to make kind of an arc in their travel... which is the actual cause of OTT inconsistency as compared to TTF.
Tabs do not stretch, so when the bands are attached they simply pull straight in line and then crash into the end of the frame after release... not arcing around the front and giving you a hand slap...

Because the ammo should travel halfway between the fork inside and end, and the bands crash more instead of flip over the top... Tabs are kind of a quasi method squarely in the middle between TTF and OTT....
 

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Well, after watching Bill Hays' video about shooting TTF and OTT from the tractor loader bucket and getting a tighter group with the TTF, I've been shooting my only real TTF frame so much the bands need replacing.
And maybe its all in my head but boy, it did seem to shoot pretty accurate.
Could it be I'm just paying more attention so it means I'm maybe concentrating a bit better?
Great video BTW. Thank you for doing that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Tabs do not stretch, so when the bands are attached they simply pull straight in line and then crash into the end of the frame after release... not arcing around the front and giving you a hand slap...
Ah you're right, but the tabs I make are made with tubes (it's also pseudo-tapered, ofc you know that technique already) so they stretch. I forgot that most people make them with paracord or cord. So in that case, it is pretty much OTT, right? I'm not a physicist nor did I analyze it at slow mo, so I can not claim 100% confidence here

Also is it the reason I got handslaps? (note that I get much less now that I'm becoming better with that setup)

PS: gonna watch this video and probably download it, thanks Bill
 

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Ah you're right, but the tabs I make are made with tubes (it's also pseudo-tapered, ofc you know that technique already) so they stretch. I forgot that most people make them with paracord or cord. So in that case, it is pretty much OTT, right? I'm not a physicist nor did I analyze it at slow mo, so I can not claim 100% confidence here

Also is it the reason I got handslaps? (note that I get much less now that I'm becoming better with that setup)

PS: gonna watch this video and probably download it, thanks Bill
Yeah, if you use a leather tab instead of a rubber tab, then I would guess you will get less hand slaps...
For OTT, if you don't want to use tabs to reduce hand slap, simply attaching as close to the end of the fork as possible really does help... the reason is there's less band to pull over the edge, which causes less of an arch on the return of the bands after release. They shoot closer to inline as well.

The way I designed my clips was so that there's a little lip that extends beyond the edge of the attachment plate... If the groove is deep enough, that little lip extends the height of the attachment point and helps to reduce hand slap...
You can use the same concept when you tie the bands on as well.

ALSO, I DO believe there may be a "magic combination" of attachment height, tip angle and edge geometry that will virtually eliminate hand slap and the other very small negative factors associated with OTT vs. TTF... and on a certain few prototypes I've made over the years it seems like I'm almost there... So at some point I think this thing will get "whooped"...
 

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@ Bill Hays "ALSO, I DO believe there may be a "magic combination" of attachment height, tip angle and edge geometry that will virtually eliminate hand slap and the other very small negative factors associated with OTT vs. TTF... and on a certain few prototypes I've made over the years it seems like I'm almost there... So at some point I think this thing will get "whooped"..."

I have to agree with that. I have a Bb shooter I like to use - very low fork tips and paracord tabs OTT - no matter what I do that setup bites me, surprisingly painfully for a light setup...
 

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One on the right is still a dude. Don't let those lady boys in Bangkok fool you. Goes to show you the guys the only shoot ott are undercover.
And the guys that only shoot TTF have “come out” from under the cover. lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Darrell Allen

** SlingLyfe Band Up **
 

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Prince of Paraprosdokians and Epistemophilia
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HOWEVER - if using butterfly style ("Papillion" for the Frenchies), one keeps his/her reference point (fork tip corner) the same on the target, no matter what the distance. In butterfly style ("mariposa" in Spanish), one compensates for the distance, not by obscuring the target and hoping for the best, but by adjusting the stretch length of the bands, accomplished with experience, just like anything else.

It's the old saying "One shouldn't lose sight of things".

See the excellent, detailed instructional videos of YT channel "Slingshotsniper TR".

Best2u,
THWACK!
 
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