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TTF most accurate said Bill Hays???

4K views 58 replies 24 participants last post by  THWACK! 
#1 ·
Why Bill Hays says that TTF is the most accurate? in this old video

I switched to OTT and I don't see any difference
 
#13 ·
I do think TTF is inherently more accurate than OTT.... but of course like most things in life "your mileage may vary".

I could go on a long spiel about how and why it is... but what would be more interesting would be if somebody other than my tests were to do them.... Once you do some benchtesting I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion as well.

That's about all folks.... we're in the middle of post season playoffs in baseball right now, and the work load never gets smaller either... so time for a little shut eye.
 
#16 ·
I shoot both every day and my most accurate is TTF, but both work. OTT will go right or left just a touch, where TTF can go up or down a touch. So when shooting cans, if you shoot OTT and seem to be missing too often, try laying them on their sides instead of standing them up. See if it helps anyway. I'm usually shooting from 20 to 50meters and you can really see the differences at longer distances.
 
#19 ·
I shot exclusively OTT for about 10 years. My accuracy greatly improved but, as was mentioned by Reed, my windage would sometimes go sour. When I was having a Zen-day I was viscous on targets and even stretched out distances to 50 and 75 yards. A few years ago I bought a TTF Mini-Taurus and that frame instantly became my most accurate shooter. Some will say it's not the frame but the shooter. I believe that certain frames seem to mesh well with a shooter and accuracy seems to come easier. With that said, I still enjoy my OTT Tianpeng frame and also another steel OTT hammer-pinch that shoots well for me.

With the TTF Mini-T I can reach out to 50 yards by changing my anchor point. Most OTT shooters will change their fork reference points as distances increase but this doesn't work for TTF so I just change the anchor point a tiny bit. You don't need a big change, just like OTT shooters don't change the fork reference by much. I'm fond of an ear point anchor so I simply adjust my anchor point to various parts of my ear. For close shots I use the ear flap (tragus) or even the top half of the tragus. For longer shots I would use the bottom of the tragus, top of lobe or even the bottom of the lobe for very long shots. Many shooters will frown upon changing an anchor point but the method does work fine for the ear.

Try everything and stick with what works best for you.

Here is one of my favorite long distance shots done by Bill with a TTF frame.

 
#20 ·
Still only a year or so into this hobby, had thought ott offering the band thickness line up stacking a very thin line would help get on target.
But feeling more and more accurate with ttf, strange.
With a ink line centered on the top band and both edges, 3 lines, giving much more surface area to sight seems to be working better for me.
Using cheap china scout hdpe clones 9.5 cm
fork width for ttf shooting 8,10,12 steel have tested on target vs exact same frames but ott, better ttf.
I have been enjoying 3/4 draw a lot, always ott, but next band changes will
rig some ttf to test.
Love this pastime and testing has akways been a joy in my life and with Sling Shots so much fun to be had!
ukj
 
#22 ·
Accuracy means different things to different people.

For some, hitting a soda can sized target means they're very accurate, some think hitting a clay pigeon sized target is accurate, and some may feel hitting the tip of a match or cutting a card is accurate... If you are of the latter persuasion then you are more likely to understand, know and feel the difference.

I've had many friends who couldn't shoot a highly tuned sniper rifle any better than a cheap Walmart gun... So yeah, shooting accurately IS in the shooter, not just the slingshot.... Because I can tell you for a fact an actual sniper can shoot a tuned sniper rifle much more accurately than he can shoot a Walmart special.... But here's the thing, he/she can also shoot the Walmart special rifle better than most people can shoot the $5000 tuned sniper rifle as well.

Most likely only in the hands of what may be considered an expert will the true differences be shown.... And yes I do know there are some experts than prefer OTT over TTF... and then again there are also a lot of experts who switched from OTT to TTF after giving it a fair try... Maybe they're wrong, maybe they're right... But I have seen a trend of more and more TTF shooters shooting in the top ranks of tournaments every year.... and more and more winning as well.

When you shoot a slingshot, any slingshot, you have many variables to deal with... stance, sight and band alignment, cant both sideways and to and fro, anchor/ no anchor, grip firmness, arm straightness and rigidity, draw weight to ammo size, and then finally target focus versus sight alignment while making sure all the other factors are correct..... Then release, release like holding a butterfly? Hold in front of ammo, on the ammo, give a tug or pull backwards as you release? And all while trying to breathe in such a way as to not mess everything up....
And I've probably skipped over a few variables as well...

In my opinion, the reason TTF is more inherently accurate then OTT is that TTF is a little more forgiving of minor variable infractions than OTT is.... Meaning, if I don't center the ball exactly in the pouch and my release is the tiniest of a fraction off, the ball is still going to go more inline with the bands than if you did the same with OTT...

So what I'm saying, in a nutshell, NOBODY is perfect.... EVERYBODY makes tiny, minor mistakes in at least some of the variables.... TTF is a tiny amount more forgiving of that.
Now, of course if you're a beginner, or even someone who's been shooting for ages... and you don't have real good control over most of what can go wrong... you'll probably never notice a difference in one versus the other... and in fact may complain that TTF gives you forkhits, when it's your problem release that's the thing, not TTF...
Probably the only things you'll notice with TTF is less handslap, even with mismatched ammo to elastics, or that it's a little noisier because the band impact on the frame.... Regardless of what you do notice, there is a difference in accuracy as well, you just have to be at a level of expertise that most people won't ever achieve to fully appreciate it is all.
 
#23 ·
Accuracy means different things to different people.

For some, hitting a soda can sized target means they're very accurate, some think hitting a clay pigeon sized target is accurate, and some may feel hitting the tip of a match or cutting a card is accurate... If you are of the latter persuasion then you are more likely to understand, know and feel the difference.

I've had many friends who couldn't shoot a highly tuned sniper rifle any better than a cheap Walmart gun... So yeah, shooting accurately IS in the shooter, not just the slingshot.... Because I can tell you for a fact an actual sniper can shoot a tuned sniper rifle much more accurately than he can shoot a Walmart special.... But here's the thing, he/she can also shoot the Walmart special rifle better than most people can shoot the $5000 tuned sniper rifle as well.

Most likely only in the hands of what may be considered an expert will the true differences be shown.... And yes I do know there are some experts than prefer OTT over TTF... and then again there are also a lot of experts who switched from OTT to TTF after giving it a fair try... Maybe they're wrong, maybe they're right... But I have seen a trend of more and more TTF shooters shooting in the top ranks of tournaments every year.... and more and more winning as well.

When you shoot a slingshot, any slingshot, you have many variables to deal with... stance, sight and band alignment, cant both sideways and to and fro, anchor/ no anchor, grip firmness, arm straightness and rigidity, draw weight to ammo size, and then finally target focus versus sight alignment while making sure all the other factors are correct..... Then release, release like holding a butterfly? Hold in front of ammo, on the ammo, give a tug or pull backwards as you release? And all while trying to breathe in such a way as to not mess everything up....
And I've probably skipped over a few variables as well...

In my opinion, the reason TTF is more inherently accurate then OTT is that TTF is a little more forgiving of minor variable infractions than OTT is.... Meaning, if I don't center the ball exactly in the pouch and my release is the tiniest of a fraction off, the ball is still going to go more inline with the bands than if you did the same with OTT...

So what I'm saying, in a nutshell, NOBODY is perfect.... EVERYBODY makes tiny, minor mistakes in at least some of the variables.... TTF is a tiny amount more forgiving of that.
Now, of course if you're a beginner, or even someone who's been shooting for ages... and you don't have real good control over most of what can go wrong... you'll probably never notice a difference in one versus the other... and in fact may complain that TTF gives you forkhits, when it's your problem release that's the thing, not TTF...
Probably the only things you'll notice with TTF is less handslap, even with mismatched ammo to elastics, or that it's a little noisier because the band impact on the frame.... Regardless of what you do notice, there is a difference in accuracy as well, you just have to be at a level of expertise that most people won't ever achieve to fully appreciate it is all.
I was gonna say for the past 3 years at least the winner of the ECST & SEST have shot TTF.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 
#24 ·
Like Bill and others have said,"Shoot the style you feel most comfortable with-frame wise and band attachment style wise. That combo and a lot of practice will get you more Bulls. There are great shooters using either styles.
 
#28 ·
Isn’t the idea behind TTF being fundamentally more accurate based on the idea it has no inherent curve in the way OTT does because it goes through the forks similar to a rifle? Where as OTT adds a slight curve because it goes around the top. That makes sense in my head. In practice I can’t tell a difference I just know that I like OTT a lot more. So I shoot it a lot more and am more accurate with it. I can see bench testing favoring TTF though when getting into the nitty gritty though.

I think you’ll just be more accurate with what method you enjoy shooting more though because the difference isn’t exactly huge. But if you’re absolutely seeking the best accuracy possible with no real preference between the two TTF probably has a slight edge.
 
#29 ·
I love how everyone is like no no difference its down to the shooter. Then one of the top table says nope I shoot ttf it's more accurate and the same people are like yup ttf is more accurate 🤣🤣🤣🤣🎯 mad!!! it's down to the shooter not the style is what i think and im sticking with that 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👊👍👌🎯
 
#33 ·
Just do your own tests and video them... prove me wrong.... everything else is just conjecture


Don't really see what you're talking about.... as far as I can see, looking back through the thread.... no one changed what they said or their opinion...

Regardless:

 
#35 ·
ATT - is against the ties :cool:

I use tubes and ATT allows for an accurate band attachment - also tha ability to easily align bands, and use them for aiming.
THX for reply but now even more misunderstanding.
You use tubes but then speak of bands?
Are you shooting bands ,tube cuffs as attachment?
Other?
thx ukj
 
#36 ·
Just made up 3/4 draw ttf for the very first time, before all 3/4 ott and ttf earlobe anchor.
So far so good, in fact just might
become my fav set up.
Maybe its just in my head but ttf offering the bands in line from
a planer perspective with pouch intuitively feels better, vs ott where bands are 90 * off.
ukj
 
#39 ·
I get a kick out of your videos Bill. I think this may be the only video of yours that doesn't contain Gail Force winds! It is always blowing down there. This is the calmest I've seen. Cool Vid!
 
#40 ·
Bill! Nice to see you around :)
Yes - in the general definition ATT would be TTF. However I'd argue that the current understanding is that TTF would be ATS (Around the side) and that ATT actually isn't the same approach. Also If I have my Tibetan Antelope frame with the bands tied off through the band groove in ATT still be TTF (If only by extreme definition)?
Guess it brings up a point... OTT we all absolutely understand, but TTF is a grey area.
 
#45 ·
Bill! Nice to see you around :)
Yes - in the general definition ATT would be TTF. However I'd argue that the current understanding is that TTF would be ATS (Around the side) and that ATT actually isn't the same approach. Also If I have my Tibetan Antelope frame with the bands tied off through the band groove in ATT still be TTF (If only by extreme definition)?
Guess it brings up a point... OTT we all absolutely understand, but TTF is a grey area.
pic of ATT plz?
 
#41 · (Edited)
Good to see you too Matt....

If the ball and bands travel through the fork.... then it's TTF
If the ball pretty much goes over the top of the fork, maybe slightly through though, and the bands travel over the top of the fork... then it's OTT

Looped tube slingshots, if pulled directly back, are a form of TTF.
Against the ties like Rufus and some of his contemporaries, the ammo passed through the forks and so did the bands... of course some would give it a flip... therefore the name "flip" for a slingshot... but it's still TTF
Slotted forks like Milligan, Whammo and others used... TTF
Bent rod, big tube shooters, generally constrictor cuffed.... TTF
Big tube shooters like Madison Parker made.... TTF
Milbro and other big solids shooters... well the natural travel path without flipping is through the forks... so they're also TTF for the most part.
As far as I can tell, the only recent TTF tying/attachment type that is more or less new, is the way I and others started doing in 2010... bands or tubes run to the outside of the fork, travel path is inside.... so that like looking down the barrel of a shotgun... simply follow the line from anchor to target, release when everything is lined up right.

In fact, from what I've been able to tell from slingshots of old all the way to today, whether designed for forks upright, to the side or somewhere in between.... TTF has been far more popular and utilized over the course of history.

The only gray area would have to be tubes to tabs attachments.... the tabs are OTT, but makes the ammo and bands act more like TTF....

OTT, however, is not a new invention either though.... and I don't know when it was invented but slingshots from over 100 years ago, like the "Zip Zip" were shot with an OTT configuration....

Here's where Gary could lend some expertise.....!
 
#44 ·
I think you covered it all Big guy! The older models were OTT. TTF came a little later. Growing up I always shot TTF because all the popular Slingshots at the time were designed that way. Wham-O, Scope-Shot, Milligan, Ace, Mulders ,Deerslayer, Killdeer Etc. were all TTF. BTW just to add more confusion, I always called it TTT "Through The Throat"! :)
 
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